Random Atheist Question #7

OK Christians… I would like to know, do people who never hear about Jesus, like those living in some undiscovered tribe in the rain forest, go to hell when they die?

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59 responses to “Random Atheist Question #7

  1. Well Zeb,

    That’s exactly what the Bible says. Jesus is the way, the only way to the Father. So I guess that would mean lights out for the lost.

    Glen

    (Thanks for the opening Zeb)

  2. @Glen
    “(Thanks for the opening Zeb)” What?

    Do you really believe that they are all going to hell?

  3. That much love is close to painful. I attended catholic school (1st though th grades) and I remember asking Sister MaryAnn that very question.

    She said, and I have never forgotten this…

    “We must reach out to as many people as possible or they will go to hell.”

    In a young mind (indoctrination comes to mind) that urgency of trying to “save” the population freaked me out. My empathy for kids my age dying and having no choice in the matter in their post-life trajectory into a burning lake of fire… haunted me. I would frequently ask her if there was a way to ask god to “just let them in anyway since they had no choice of their own”…

    “No. You cannot ask god to break his word. What is done is done and what is written in law.”

    I remember these conversations clearly only because my mother was called into the office on many occasions due to my incessant questioning of the faith. It got so bad that my tuition was raised two-fold and we could no longer afford it. My mother was convinced that I needed to SHUT UP already.

    I was then dropped into a baptist school… (sorry I got off topic! I will shut it now. ๐Ÿ˜ฆ )

  4. We believe that God wants to redeem His entire Creation back to Him.

    We also believe that it is our duty to bring the Jesus message to as many people as we can.

    We also believe that we were created to live here, on Earth, in a perfected relationship with Him, Creation, and each other.

    So spending an eternity in Heaven or Hell is not the idea. The idea is that we as Christians will work to bring Heaven back to Earth.

    jj

  5. @Wingnut
    Right… Each one of your statements could be a topic for discussion. But what happens to the people who never hear about Jesus when they die?

  6. Zeb, are you including the people BEFORE Abraham as well?

  7. I swear, I didn’t mean to avoid the question:)

    The answer, I think, is in the Gospel of John.

    Jesus is the embodiment of Logos, and was present at Creation with God.

    When Jesus was crucified, his sacrifice was once for all time(Hebrews 10)

    The wisdom that Jesus embodied has been present since the dawn of time, available to all who seek it. And Luke 11:9, 10 tell us that if we seek the knowledge and wisdom of God, it will be given to us.

    jj

  8. @The Wingnut
    But how do the people get the “knowledge and wisdom” of god with out a bible or anybody to tell them? How can they know Jesus without hearing about him?

  9. @The Wingnut
    Let us say it is 400 AD in North America. A young Man says to himself,”I wonder who make all this. My people say it was the Great Spirit, but I,m not sure”. How will your god tell the young man about Jesus so he can believe and be saved? There are no missionaries in this area yet and he can’t travel to the other side of the world to hear the “good news”. Does the person go to heaven or hell when he dies?

  10. Nice job, Wingnut.

    I’ll add that I think those that are not under the law are saved by being under grace, much like Adam and Eve before the fall. Though they don’t reap the earthly benefit of the wisdom Wingnut describes, God’s grace frees them from accountability for the knowledge withheld from them. As wingnut said, Christ died and was resurrected one time for all humanity. However, once they realize they’ve fallen, there’s no salvation for them but the knowledge of their savior.

    I’ll go back to just reading, now…

  11. @bradley
    “Godโ€™s grace frees them from accountability for the knowledge withheld from them. As wingnut said, Christ died and was resurrected one time for all humanity. However, once they realize theyโ€™ve fallen, thereโ€™s no salvation for them but the knowledge of their savior.”

    So… Didn’t the Christian missionaries do the world a great disservice by spreading the “Good News”? If the people who never heard about Jesus were free from accountability didn’t telling them condemn them to hell?
    Wouldn’t the best thing have been for your god to kill himself/his son in private so we could all be under that grace?
    Just a thought ๐Ÿ™‚

  12. Well, living under that grace would have been awesome. But, we wanted to know more… we wanted to BE more.

    I agree with you to some extent about the missionaries. Think about the naked bliss tribes in Africa were in before missionaries and the National Geographic Explorers told them all to put on clothes. That’s a little forced fall for you. That’s way different than them seeing our civilization and wanting what we have.

  13. @bradley
    “Well, living under that grace would have been awesome. But, we wanted to know moreโ€ฆ we wanted to BE more” Who is “we”? I had no choice in were and when I was born…
    I am not sure you are seeing the magnitude for this post.

    If your god sends them to hell because he didn’t tell them about himself, he is a monster. If he lets them into heaven because he never told them about himself, then he is a jerk for telling us…. See the problem?

  14. Do you wish we could go back to vine swinging and poo slinging? Don’t get me wrong… I like camping and letting it all hang out. But, I also enjoy the modern medicine and pleasing tunes on ipods that accompany civilization.

    Some people do well with civilization… some people load up their ipods with country music… no thank you.

    This post was meant in a jovial way… sense I don’t grasp the magnitude of the situation. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  15. @bradley
    I am not sure what is funny about the idea of billions of people burning in hell forever…
    This post was meant to get people to think about what they really believe. What do you think about a god that would set things up the way they are described in the bible? It is these kind of questions that make it impossible for me to believe in the Christian god. If he is suppose to be perfect, why are his plans so flawed?

    Are you telling me you don’t see the problem with the “salvation” scenario?

  16. Zeb, what we’re trying to say is that God isn’t okay with “billions of people burning in hell forever” either.

    Jesus’ sacrifice was “once for all time”. That means that Jesus died for everyone, past, present, and future.

    And those people who don’t know him, past, present, and future, will be judged according to their faith in whatever system God has revealed to them.

    The effect of Jesus’ death and ressurrection is cosmic in scope. It affected every part of the universe. In God’s eyes, the price for our sin has been paid.

    jj

  17. Wingnut, far more elegantly than I could say it. But, what I think you’re failing to see, wingnut, is just what a horrible god, God really is. He’s horrible. Don’t you read the bible?… horrible. No other belief makes any sense, he’s just horrible. He should have just done us all a favor and left us monkeys… or better yet, he should have just never created life at all. What a horrible, horrible, inadequate God. ๐Ÿ˜ฆ

    I don’t know about you, wingnut, but I don’t live a life of fear. Do you feel like you’re worshiping the God of our creation at gunpoint? I know God will kill me dead for any number of things. I accept that. I learned not to stick forks in wall outlets at a very early age. Oh, but wait, horrible God should have made electricity sprout candy from the plugs instead of death. He’s so flawed.

  18. @bradley

    You know what else is horrible? The fact that we have a choice in the matter. I mean, what kind of sick, twisted entity do you have to be to empower the entire cosmos with their own ability to choose between right and wrong?

    It’s disgusting. I would rather have all my decisions made for me already.

    A good god would change the very laws of nature so that nothing bad ever happens to anyone anywhere.

    bradley, you have made me come to the conclusion that I no longer wish to be a father because my children will disobey me. Thank you for showing me the light.

    jj

  19. All sarcasm aside, the reality really is horrible. Life is not the horrible part of the reality, though. The horrible part is that some of us see what causes Life and what causes Death, and choose death.

    I guess learning to not touch fire because it’s hot is just easier to comprehend as death than the rest of sin in the bible. Faith is believing the death of sin is just as deadly as fire, without actually seeing it. But, some of us learn first hand the deadly reality of sin. I know I did. I had to learn some pretty hard lessons for disobeying God.

  20. @bradley
    Are you two having fun? Good.

  21. @The Wingnut
    “And those people who donโ€™t know him, past, present, and future, will be judged according to their faith in whatever system God has revealed to them.”

    How do you know that my non-belief was not “revealed” to me?
    If there is a god out there I can guaranty nobody knows It.

    As for your god liking or not liking anything, all I have to go on is the bible and what you say about him. Which should I go with when you do not agree?

  22. @bradley
    “The horrible part is that some of us see what causes Life and what causes Death, and choose death.”

    This would be part of you belief system and therefore not provable. I would think that the only people who “see what causes Life and what causes Death, and choose death” from you perspective would be Satan worshippers… Maybe…
    Some of us do not believe in your god or his lackey Satan. So what you see as choosing death, we see as choosing to believe in fairy stories.
    Don’t get me wrong, I think you can believe whatever you like, as long as you don’t force it on others. Or look down on others for thinking differently than you.

  23. zebulonthered :@bradleyAre you two having fun? Good.

    I was:)

    jj

  24. @zebulonthered

    Zeb,

    You and I have both noted that we have travelled down similar paths when it comes to this. Both of us have asked hard questions, faith-shaking questions, and both of us have come away with answers that changed our beliefs forever.

    When you say that no-one can guarantee the existence of God, do you mean that no-one can prove it? You’re right. I can’t find one single shred of scientific proof that God exists. That’s why they call it faith. If it was proof, it wouldn’t need to be faith.

    As far as God liking or disliking anything, I certainly can’t speak for the mind of God.

    What I do know is what He has revealed to me through His Creation, as well as Scriptures. If Scriptures and I do not agree, then I would assume that the fault lies with me, or my interpretation of Scriptures.

    The problem is, what we THINK the Bible says is often very different from what the Bible actually says. I have struggled with this for a long time, and have had to abandon many of the accepted interpretations that we both learned growing up, in favor of a deeper understanding of what the Bible means, what it meant to the writers, to the original audience, and to us in this present time.

    I think anyone with a genuine desire to walk with Christ needs to go through this re-examination and questioning, in order to expand and deepen their faith.

    jj

  25. zebulonthered :
    @bradley
    Are you two having fun? Good.

    Me too. ๐Ÿ˜€
    You’re running a very welcoming blog. Thanks for that.

  26. @The Wingnut
    I can find nothing wrong with what you have just said.

    “What I do know is what He has revealed to me through His Creation, as well as Scriptures. If Scriptures and I do not agree, then I would assume that the fault lies with me, or my interpretation of Scriptures.”
    I would say that this statement is true in a sense, but can produce an unlimited number of belief systems unique to the individuals involved.

    What I can not grasp is how you can ask the faith-shaking questions, come to the very edge where your senses and mind come into conflict with your beliefs and just shut down your mind so you can stick with your beliefs. I tried to do it, but couldn’t.

  27. Don’t assume that because I am a man of faith that I have shut my mind down.

    And don’t assume that my beliefs remained static in the face of those questions. They did not. I do not believe the same way I did in high school, or college. Hopefully, that means I’m maturing in my faith and my understanding of God.

    jj

  28. @The Wingnut
    I am not trying to be offensive, jj. I am trying to understand how you kept your faith in the light of so many questions. I know you didn’t shut your mind down. I was referring only to the area of god and belief. I know your faith is not static also, as there is no such thing as static in the real world. ๐Ÿ™‚

  29. @zebulonthered

    I honestly don’t know some days how I did it. Truth be told, I’m still working it all out, but basically what it comes down to is that I believe with all my heart that there is more to this whole thing than just what we can see, taste, touch, smell and hear.

    And from that, I believe that the Bible is telling us the larger story, at least in part. The story is going somewhere, it’s moving, it’s breathing, it’s alive, and I want to continue to be a (small) part of that story.

    jj

  30. @The Wingnut
    … That is not very helpful, jj. ๐Ÿ™‚

    I agree that there is more to this whole thing than just what we can see, taste, touch, smell and here. I just don’t think whatever it is can be found in Christianity or any other system dependent on the blind acceptance of unverifiable beliefs. I lived Christianity most of my life, but in the end it could not stand up to the rest of the world I experienced with my senses. I would think that if a system of beliefs were true they would mesh better with the observable world. If you know what I mean… When it comes down to it we may never know what is really going on and that is ok. There is nothing weak about admitting we don’t know somthing. But there may be something weak in the inability to admit we don’t know it… I don’t know. ๐Ÿ™‚

  31. zebulonthered :
    Some of us do not believe in your god or his lackey Satan. So what you see as choosing death, we see as choosing to believe in fairy stories.

    I just don’t understand how believing that eating pork and shellfish is bad for you is fairyland. Too bad I love both… Am I wrong to eat shellfish, knowing that it’s bad for us? What if I’m cheating my kids of a healthy father for most of their life? What about the people that have no idea they’re bad us, but see me eating it and assume it must be safe? Do I hold ANY of the responsibility at all?

    Sorry about calling everything death… I tried to use “negative consequences” and you jumped all over a sadistic god that imposed more than just a mild “negative consequence.”

    Man, I could really go for some lobster ravioli. ๐Ÿ˜€

  32. @zebulonthered

    “I would think that if a system of beliefs were true they would mesh better with the observable world.”

    I believe that God created the world.

    I also believe that God gave us special revelations of Himself within the Bible.

    I believe that both Creation and the Bible come from God.

    If these two things both came from God, where can there possibly be differences?

    The issue then becomes one of biblical interpretation: What did the Bible MEAN when it said this?

    Or scientific study: What DON’T we know about Creation yet?

    Many of the questions that break people’s faith are the wrong sort of questions to be asking about the Bible.

    Please note that I’m not questioning your honesty or authenticity. Your questions are real, and you’re doing some hard work engaging them, if even from a different direction than I am.

    How about this for a question: What does it mean to be a Christian? What are the essential beliefs that you need to profess to call yourself a Christian?

    jj

  33. The Wingnut :@zebulonthered How about this for a question: What does it mean to be a Christian? What are the essential beliefs that you need to profess to call yourself a Christian?
    jj

    Good question Wingnut. Since we have 539 Christian denominations. That in itself can turn people away. I, for one, prefer to be called a follower of Jesus Christ; because I’m just trying to keep up with the footprints in the sand, nothing more. I used to get hung up on doctrine and baptism and man-made-crap. Now I have a motto “Lov’n the Lord & Liv’n the Life…”. Nuff said!

    Let me jump out here and also define Atheist. “A true atheist is someone absence of all belief that any deities exist.” This contrasted to the wannabe-atheist using names like โ€œson-of-satanโ€ & Lucifer. These are persons rebelling against a God they say does not exist, but actually they are more up-set God did not grant their wish.

    Glen

  34. @The Wingnut
    I understand that you see things from a Christian angle and would then have to see things the way you do. You believe that your believes are correct or you would not believe them. But where you see the “Truth” I see just one more system of mythology. Don’t get me wrong I think mythology has a vital roll in human culture, but I don’t think it is necessary to believe the stories to be anything more than stories. Does the golden rule become less true if Jesus never said it? I don’t think so. Is love no longer valid if there was no god to invent it? Again, no.
    I guess I have to wonder why the Christian Mythos has to be the only valid Mythos. You believe it to be the whole of true reality, but what if it is not? If you were born in a different time or place you would most likely believe another system of belief to be the whole of true reality. Would you be wrong then or are you wrong now? Maybe you would be wrong in both cases….

    I asked this random question (the post) to show a logical inconsistency in biblical dogma, but if you believe without question maybe you can’t see it. It seems to easy for us to gloss over these inconsistency with platitudes and logical fallacies. Isn’t there something that feels wrong with that?
    Sorry if this comment doesn’t make total sense… I need to eat something. ๐Ÿ™‚

  35. @zebulonthered

    “I guess I have to wonder why the Christian Mythos has to be the only valid Mythos. You believe it to be the whole of true reality, but what if it is not? If you were born in a different time or place you would most likely believe another system of belief to be the whole of true reality. Would you be wrong then or are you wrong now? Maybe you would be wrong in both casesโ€ฆ.”

    I think you’ve got it, especially that last part. I choose to follow Christ because I believe His example and His redemptive work on the cross is the clearest, strongest, and most full revelation of God.

    No-one will ever know the full extent of God. Such a massively powerful, creative, intelligent being will always be at least partly mysterious. Even if humanity had the opportunity to understand Him, we wouldn’t be able to. The most we’re ever able to do is see “where I just was” (Exodus 33:23).

    I know why you asked the question in your post. I tried to answer as best I can, and I don’t think I glossed over anything with platitudes or logical fallacies.

    jj

  36. Yeah, I don’t see any logical inconsistency. I understand you DO see one, though that doesn’t make it the accurate description of reality any more than my perspective does.

    I agree with wingnut… “no one will ever know the full extent of God.” It seems like knowing an eternal God would take an eternity. We’re still kind of young, on the cosmic scale. To think we possess even a tiny piece makes me have images of God stuck in traffic, crammed in a clown car.

  37. @bradley
    How long would it take to know a non-existent god? What if what you perceive as god is nothing more than a projection of you subconscious mind? I know you believe god is real, but how is that enough to steer you life by? I am trying to see it from the Christian point of view but I can’t see it.

    As for as I can tell Christianity is nothing more that a highly popular Jewish cult. Which of Jesus’ promises have been fulfilled? If his is real where is he? Why must his followers find ways to justify what the bibles says he said?

  38. zebulonthered :I know you believe god is real, but how is that enough to steer you life by? I am trying to see it from the Christian point of view but I canโ€™t see it.

    No offense, but I don’t buy that for one second. In another post you said your faith was real, that you “had it”. I’m sorry but that says to me that you can easily see it, you just don’t want to anymore. I’d go so far as to say that I think your life is probably still modeled, somewhat, after the teaching you merely deem now as good advice. I’m not saying you still believe in God… I’m just saying that I don’t believe that it suddenly doesn’t make any sense to you.

    Sorry, but something doesn’t quite add up when you state that you can see the valley from both hillsides, and you just don’t get it. Seeing the valley from the christian hill means you get it, doesn’t it?

  39. zebulonthered
    As for as I can tell Christianity is nothing more that a highly popular Jewish cult. Which of Jesusโ€™ promises have been fulfilled? If his is real where is he? Why must his followers find ways to justify what the bibles says he said?

    There are several theological differences between Judaism and Christianity, and they are all pretty obvious. We went to church for a long time together Zeb, and we both learned those differences at a young age.

    You aske which promises have been fulfilled, I’m asking you what promises you think WEREN’T fulfilled.

    You ask where He is if He is alive. You know the answer to that. It’s in Matthew 18:20.

    You ask why we need to find ways to justify what the Bible says He said. I ask you why you think we’re trying to “justify” it. Are you questioning the historocity of Jesus? Quite frankly, there are better things to debate than that. There is more textual evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for Alexander the Great, but you don’t question whether he existed, do you?

    jj

  40. @bradley
    I guess you don’t have to believe me, Bradley. But the more I look at it the harder it is for me to understand how I believed any of it. All I can do is chock it up to childhood indoctrination. The further down the road I travel, the less sense Christianity makes to me. Apart from the details how is it different from all the other belief systems of the world? They are equally non-provable. They are equally silly in their own ways… I try to see things from all sides. The only thing I can see that makes any amount of sense in Christianity is the belief in a Creator, and that only because people have a hard time understanding how everything came to be.

  41. @The Wingnut
    It is a prove fact that Christianity started as a small Jewish cult. You don’t have to like it but it’s true. ๐Ÿ™‚
    There are differences, yes, but that ink of thing happens over 2000 years of going down different roads.

    You ask for unfulfilled promises and mention Matt. 18:20 which is one of the unfulfilled promises I was talking about… Funny ๐Ÿ™‚
    If you combine that verse with John 14:13 and ask Jesus to show himself physically (like he did in the bible) does he do it? No. Why? Well, there are two possibilities because these two verses are very straight forward we can’t use believer justifications. The first possibility is that Jesus is not really there so he can’t show up. The second is that he can’t do what we ask. Either way the bible is wrong which makes it an unfulfilled promise.

    I know you will claim that what we ask has to be part of gods will… But there are no conditions placed on this promise. I know several Christians who believed John 14:13 and prayed for the glory of god that their mother would not die… Their were disappointed.

    I don’t know if what you say about historical Jesus is true. What sources are you claiming? The new testament does not count… After all there are no writings about Zeus than Alexander the Great, should we therefore believe in Zeus? ๐Ÿ™‚

  42. zebulonthered;

    If you were to accept the existence of God, any god. Is there a religion or believe system that you are impressed with? Other than the 539 Christian ones.

    Glen

  43. @Glen
    The number is 38000 not 539. ๐Ÿ™‚ That is an interesting question. I like a lot of the things found in Zen Buddhism. But you don’t need to believe in god to be Buddhist. ๐Ÿ™‚
    I also like some of the stuff practised by the Native Americans. They seem to have a grasp of the human place in the world… So maybe if you were to combine those two world views you would have a religion I could follow. I don’t know that for sure. There is the whole thing about avoiding solid-state thought systems. There is a danger there of the “us against them”, “I’m right and you’re wrong” thinking that leads to hate, fighting, and war.

  44. @Glen
    Also, I don’t know if I could accept the existence of any god. If I did it would take something substantial.

    What would it take for you to believe that aliens are abducting 30% of the American population? I am not asking because I believe they are. But I would bet that for me to believe in god I would need the same kind of proof you would need to believe in mass alien abduction. ๐Ÿ™‚

  45. MenAfterGod.com

    LOL well…I’m not a good to ask that question. You remember my theory on the missing link? Yeah aliens could exist, but I haven’t met one yet to reveal himself to the public.

    But, You have a valid point.

    As to all those aliens abductions, it’s B.S.! If they went to all the trouble to grab someone they would not waste time returning them.

    Glen

  46. MenAfterGod.com

    @zebulonthered yep, you are right if you breck all the different doctrines down. But, the 539 is the registered number of denominations the US Government recognizes. But good detective work on your part.

    Glen
    “Lov’n the Lord & Liv’n the Life…”

  47. Zeb, I don’t mean to quibble about definitions, but here I go anyway:)

    Your claim that Christianity is just a “highly popular Jewish cult” is flat-out wrong. While it is true that Christianity started out as just another Jewish messianic movement, the seperation from Judaism came to it’s fullness at the First Council of Jerusalem, ca. 50AD. At this council it was decided the new converts would not be required to adhere to the Mosaic Law of the Jews. At that point, Christianity ceased to be a branch of Judaism.

    Obviously we share the same spiritual heritage, and many of the same theological ideas, but Judaism and Christianity remain seperate and distinct religious traditions.

    For the un-fulfilled promises, I also believe you’re mistaken. Jesus *did* bring Peace. It was the world, the powers in charge, the popular culture, the people that rejected it. I’m sure this is going to sound to your ears like a “believer justification”, but to me, it’s prayerfully and intelligently interpreting Scriptures.

    As for John 14:13 I will say this. I am in my house. Let’s say that you call me on my phone. Are you in my house too? Yes. Though your physical body is not in my house, your presence is. I can hear you, you can hear me, we can both experience what is happening in my house, but you are not *physically* there.

    Of course, since you can’t accept “believer justifications”, whatever that means, you can’t accept my arguments as intelligent Biblical interpretation, and are therefore free to dismiss any answer I come up with as incomplete and irrational. And even that is only if you consider the New Testament to be relatively historically accurate, which I do.

    jj

  48. @Wingnut
    And so we side into the unending debate… Weee. Isn’t it kind of funny/sad how easy it is?

    Who knows maybe you are right. ๐Ÿ™‚

  49. I’m still confused how someone can believe in God… and then NOT believe. I guess it sounds simple, but how do you believe in something without needing any proof, and then stop believing something because there isn’t any proof?

    You might be on to something with indoctrination. Like, I guess maybe if you believed your parents would always tell you the truth, then believing in stuff like Santa Claus or God would come naturally. But, that seems like more of a belief in your parents, than actually in God or Santa.

  50. zebulonthered :@WingnutAnd so we side into the unending debateโ€ฆ Weee. Isnโ€™t it kind of funny/sad how easy it is?
    Who knows maybe you are right.

    Of course that’s whats going to happen. You and I will always find something to disagree on.

    You’re asking some tough questions, here, Zeb, and many people don’t have answers. I admit that I don’t have good answers to some of these questions either.

    The thing is, you have rejected every ounce of authority that Christian theology and history have. Obviously, if you do not believe the NT to be true, then any conclusion anyone reaches using the NT as a source is automatically dismissed by you as a ridiculously irrational logical fallacy.

    What type of answers will you accept?

    jj

  51. @bradley
    Oh but I had proof. I believed the bible. That is all the proof a good Christian needs. Right?
    It wasn’t until I started seeing the wholes in the church dogma biblical “facts” that I found better explanations for the way things are.
    I hope this helps ๐Ÿ™‚

  52. @Wingnut
    “The thing is, you have rejected every ounce of authority that Christian theology and history have. Obviously, if you do not believe the NT to be true, then any conclusion anyone reaches using the NT as a source is automatically dismissed by you as a ridiculously irrational logical fallacy.

    What type of answers will you accept?”

    I have to wonder what authority is there in Christian theology and how much history we learned through Christian education is factual?
    You have to see that using the bible to prove any part of the bible true is like using The Lord of The Rings to prove that Frodo has nine fingers or that magic rings exist. I am not saying that the bible is a total work of fiction (it might be, but that’s not what I am saying) I am saying that we can’t use any source of information to substantiate itself.

    I don’t know what answers I would accept… I don’t know that there are answers that you can give while still being a Christian. I don’t mean that in a negative way. Don’t you find it troubling that you don’t have answers to questions about your fundamental beliefs? I did.

  53. So, what if there actually was written proof outside LOTR that Frodo had 9 fingers and magic rings existed. If they were all rounded up and included in the LOTR:Addendum would they cease being relevant or trustworthy? I fear for all of history… I mean, what if we included biographies of all the civil rights leaders in a history book about the Civil Rights movement in the US… that’s just bound to be fake.

  54. Pun ๐Ÿ˜€

  55. @bradley
    I fear for all of history too. With the current culture of history revisionists in the public schools we should all be worried. But that is not what you meant…

    Surely you see the difference between history books, with multiple sources cited and the bible. History books use dates and multiple first hand accounts, along with writings by known past historians who lived in the time and recorded what they witnessed. The bible is a heavily sifted collection of writings with dubious lineage, written by unknown authors possibly generations after the stories were suppose to have happened.
    Not only that but history books do not tell the same story more than once with different facts. Nor do they included amazing tales of mass infanticide that were somehow missed by every other historian of the time.

    If you believe that we should blindly accept every unsubstantiated collection of stories as fact, then indeed you should fear for all of history. For how could we then what is true and what is fiction?

  56. By the fruit it yields….

    Like, I would suspect putting all of your faith in Man or church, instead of the Bible and God, would reveal to you the Truth within the bible. There’s precedent for every ounce of corruption and discontent you experienced. That’s some first hand account you’ve written about, right? I vote we add it to the bible, mate. Sounds like truth… churches still mean well, but lie… religious still adhere to rituals but miss the point. That’s for taking one for the team and proving some of the biblical fact. ๐Ÿ˜€

    As for amazing tells not captured by other sources…
    Didn’t the atheist champion state some logic involving fossils? Fossils are a gift, not necessarily to be expected for filling the gaps. Just because we haven’t found the certain fossils doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. I would say multiple millennia old writings should fall under the same logic. Come on… that we have any account at all is amazing. Perhaps you need surveillance video of the region and time to believe? Oh man, can you imagine if YouTube had existed back then? Now that would’ve been one HUGE catholic conspiracy.

  57. That is indeed a good question, and one that forces Christians to admit that their “Jesus brings immortality to believers” concept is totally bogus.

    Let’s face it – all the nice, rational, and tolerant people will be in hell, so if Christians are to believed then I’ll see you there. ๐Ÿ™‚

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