This is a conversation that I have moved from the “About Zeb” page.
Steve Wunderink (frankie’s husband)
Aug 27, 2010 @ 20:48:06
Zeb … if you are ready for a serious discussion I am more than willing … but first you need to define a few terms for me. No meaningful discussion can take place when we use words that mean different things to different people:
Define these definitions of yourself for me:
Aug 28, 2010 @ 18:24:50
How is life in the big city?
I am more than happy to define these words for you.
Minimalist – To own as few material possessions as possible. I could even
go so far as to say that I don’t believe anyone “owns” anything.
Zen Buddhist – I am not exactly a Zen Buddhist, but I follow many of the
practices. I do not believe the supernatural parts of Buddhism. I have my
own ideas of how things work. Buddha said to try all of it, and set
aside what doesn’t work.
Hippie – I say I am a hippie because I think that the System is broken
and we need to do something about it. I also think about what I do and
what I buy, how it will effect me and those around me. I don’t use soap
or deodorant and I rarely use shampoo because they are bad for me and the
environment. I think that corporate America is an unnecessary evil. I
think that we need to rethink how we do things. I could go on…
“think independently” – Independent thought is looked down upon in this
culture. If someone has the nerve to think differently, they are shunned.
People have an “understanding” of how the world works and they hold to
it, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. When we
teach our children that there is only one way of doing things, we are
setting them up to be mindless zombies. We tend to get upset if they ask
too many questions, and so they learn to stop asking. That is bad.
slavery – Bondage, either mental or physical.
I could elaborate but I don’t like writing books. 🙂
What would you like to talk about?
I can make a post for the subject if you like.
Oh, can you write a little bit about yourself so I know where you are coming from? Thanks.
Aug 28, 2010 @ 20:09:58
WOW … where to start … I’ll ask a question in each of your definitions and see which rabbit hole we want to go down …
Minimalist: Why would it be wrong to “own” something or to “possess” something?
Zen Buddhist: You are not “exactly” a Buddhist so there is some wiggle room there but what are the “supernatural” parts of Zen Buddhism? What is your “idea” of how things work?
Hippie: So hippie is the opposite of corporate America? AND hippie is protecting the envrironment through watching what you do and buy? What are your thoughts on a better way than corporate America?
Think Independently: Why do you think independent thot is looked down on? Is “independant” thought the same thing as “different” thaought? What if there IS only one way to do things? (1+1=2, etc).
Slavery: Do you think you or anyone will/can EVER be free from some sort of bondage or do we just trade one bond for another?
there’s a start … let’s go from there
Aug 28, 2010 @ 21:24:01
Steve ~ I think we could take them in order but I have to ask why you would care why or what I think. I have not heard from you in years and you show up here and start probing into my life. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind. I am just curious about your motivations.
Also, I was hoping for some info about you. I have some vague memories but nothing more.
I will respond to you question about Minimalist: Why would it be wrong to “own” something or to “possess” something?
I never said it was “wrong” to own things I said that I don’t believe anyone “owns” anything. It is a Buddhist thing I think. I don’t keep a lot of stuff because I do not wish to be attached to things I do not need. Attachment leads to suffering… I don’t think that we can own anything anyway. All we have is our minds. Our thoughts. Our deeds. Everything else we just use for awhile. For example, how can we own land? It has been here for billions of years. We have only lived for a few decades. If anything the land owns us becuase we came from it. Owning things is an artificial human construct. And not all humans think of things in that way.
Think about it. Do you own anything that can be taken away at any moment? Your shirt? Your car? Your life? All we have is our minds, thoughts, and deeds. When those are trampled on it is a great wrongness.
Now, how about it. What is your motivation and you Bio.
Aug 28, 2010 @ 23:19:31
I care because I choose to. I have known you for a long time even though we have not spoken in years and even when we were in the same state we didn’t speak much. I am not probing into you as much as, I believe, you are probing/challenging the world (religious world, corporate world, the MAN, etc) My motivating is nothing beyond Proverbs 27:17.
My bio? I am a cultural exegete.
Minimalist: “I don’t believe anyone owns anything” I think I understand. But now we need to define the word “OWN” What does it mean to own something. Sounds like one of your definitions of ownership is “to be attached to” something. Another definition for ownership is to “come from” something. Also you define it as possessions “shirt, car” or something that can be taken away. So you gave me at least three difinitions for ownership of something. Remember without agreeing on the definitions we can’t get anywhere, it is as if we are speaking a different language.
If you define ownership as “being attached to” I would agree. We should not “own” or attach ourselves to anything worldly, anything that can rust or fade away. But we can and should attach ourselves to each other right? Isn’t that what marriage is al about? Isn’t that what love truly is? So by that definition of own we vow to own each other when we get married, when we have kids, etc. Attachement leads to suffering YES but it also is the only path to truely loving someone. You cannot love someone if you are not attached, engaged, and OWNING each other.
The second definition is to come from something signifies ownership like we come from the earth and to the dust we shall return. Buddhism teaches that we should not be attached to this world, detachment is the goal, not NEEDING the things of this world is a step to Nirvana. Okay, to follow that teaching to its completion if no one owns anything then everyone owns everything correct? Unfortunately that reasoning leads to chaos and the only thing that holds off chaos is artificial human constructs like laws on ownership, on stealing, on rape, on killing. It is NOT the artificial human construct that are the problem, they are necessary to keep chaos away. The problem is silly and stupid humans using those artificial constructs for their own gain and selfishness.
Lastly your defnition of ownership is over things that can be taken away. And you are RIGHT you should not become attached to someTHING that can be taken. But again, that referrs to THINGS and not people. You MUST become attached to people.
Let me give you a few simple definitions of “ownership” of my own and see if you can agree with them.
Ownership is a temporary economic transaction. Used to keep stability in a society.
Ownership is stewardship. To own something means that you are responsible for it. YOU must care for it, nurture it, grow it, see that it is better after you leave than it was before you came. Therefor the more you own the more responsibility you have to be a steward. If you are a good steward the more you own the better it is for society. If you are a bad steward the less you own the better it is for society.